I’ve always struggled with fitting in but have held myself (mostly) within the boundaries of social norms. However most recently, at the grand old age of 64, I don’t feel the need to do that - the freedom! I was with my husband recently in a town in the U.K. and we went into a local estate agency to thank a chap who had been very helpful in making our recent house purchase happen. He was on the phone. I was tired and had had a day of being social. I simply said I was ‘’peopled out”, didn’t want to wait and would walk back on my own. The shock on other people’s faces - and the joy I felt at having said and done exactly what I wanted to do! Marvellous 🤩😂
Wonderful! It's particularly wonderful that your joy was not dampened at all by the shock you saw on other people's faces So, do you think age/life experience had a role to play here? One thing I'm wondering -- is there a point we reach in life when we just don't care about the things we used to worry about?
I believe that I have less patience now than in my twenties, though I wasn't that patient then either. One boss I had back then talked too much for my liking and finally I blurted that I was sick of her voice. Didn't even know that was going to come out.
That's a memorable moment! It reminded me of the time my boss was encouraging me to join an aerobics class in the gym that our company opened on campus for employees.. I said " nah, the teachers are too bossy. I don't like people telling me what to do" Luckily for me she just laughed.
Alas, I am often the person who blurts out! Whether asking overly intellectual questions at the parents classroom session at my kids' universities, to answering rhetorical questions at large performances. The trouble for me, is I don't feel shame about it, or rarely! Such outbursts always come from joy, for me. Enthusiasm, a spark of curiosity. I don't dwell or make a fuss if I am not answered, or anything too disruptive. But they are definitely "outbursts". The absence of shame makes me wonder what that means about my personality or wiring. 😁
I suspect the joy is communicated along with the ideas and there is no shame to be found there. Do you ever get responses that surprise and delight you in those situations, or at least make you feel you connected with at least one of the members of the group?
I find that I can't be objective about this because what you did is such a literal description of exactly what my wife would've done and has done in similar situations.
Perhaps I don't understand the context well enough, but I find it hilarious, endearing, and necessary. There are those amongst us who will speak up in those situations even if they surprise themselves sometimes, while most won't.
I bet you're not the only one still telling that story and that many are still appreciating that moment, and even wishing that they had that kind of moxie.
How wonderful to know this. I would like to meet your wife and attend various events with her. We could take turns keeping folks in line :) (If we weren't kicked out).
Now that you are a subscriber, you already know... I wrote the following in reply, but couldn't quite bring myself to post it:
I think that would be amazing and I would love nothing more than for that to be a possibility. Sadly as of this past year we will all have to make do without her beautiful, loving, vibrant and generous spirit, along with her brilliantly sparkling and mischievous moxie.
Take this for what it's worth - I talk to her...
She said that she loved your story and thinks you're a hoot - and that you two could have done some serious damage together.
Tell her thank you for me. I know she hears you and, just as important, I know you hear her. I am glad I subscribed and will get to know a bit about both of you.
this is a fascinating theory, and I have to agree. we tend to 'perform' differently according to place and our audience. I've never really thought deeply about that before. it kind of sounds like the professor was perhaps a little too full of himself, and really only needed to do a short intro and let the film tell the story. maybe a good option for all would have been if he offered to stay after the film to discuss it with anyone who would like to talk about it further. I'm with you on this one.
First, thank you for bringing Goffman to the attention of your readers. I asked a friend who is a professor of psychology if he was still read, and she gave me an emphatic yes. As for the movie, I would have shouted in your favor. I once went to a reading by Edwidge Danticat. The professor who introduced her talked for at least 20 minutes about how Danticat had guided her own journey to becoming her true self. This to an audience of at least 150 people. I wanted to do what you did! Don’t feel too bad for the professor you interrupted, and yes, he probably did break the projector.
If you felt that way, can you imagine how Edwidge Danticat felt? Wow. That was egregious. I've been to readings and events when the introductions were very elaborate and made everyone uncomfortable.
I'll never know who broke that projector. Maybe it's better that I don't!
I think you were “right on” Betsy! And really if it had happened today, I believe people would have openly applauded you. Honestly, did the Professor have the talking rights which obviously was thrilling for him but a spoiler who those in attendance?
I wonder...I was, in a sense, on his turf. He was a figure in the festival's leadership and obviously respected. He was feeding his ego but the rules of that group seemed to allow it. So, maybe in that group he did feel he had the right to go on as much as he wanted?
Hi Betsy, what an intriguing situation, which made for a fascinating post. My reading is that the professor broke the rules by applying lecture theatre norms to a public film showing. There's probaby no un-embarrassing way to correct him at this stage but from my point of view, what you did was right, even though you had to break the norms to bring things back on track. Going through my mind, though, is the role of gender here. Is a woman interrupting a man viewed in the same way as a man interrupting a woman? What would have happened if the genders had been reversed in this case?
What a great question. I've wondered often if my response to the professor -- which was spontaneous, unplanned, more like a burbling up of resentments -- had something to do with his being male and holding the floor and feeling so comfortable about all that. If a woman had been droning on, I would have wanted to interrupt her but probably would not have unless the rest of the audience had been women too and my outburst may have taken another form. And if a man had done so, my outrage at the man for interrupting probably would have trumped my relief that the droning was over. The rules for women operate, at least in my experience, differently than for men just as classroom or lecture norms differ from a public film showing. Thanks so much for engaging with this question, Jeffrey!
That's so interesting. I also wonder how the professor would have reacted to a man interrupting him. I've experienced a few such droners-on in similar circumstances, though none of the cases perhaps quite so egregious. Without exception, they've been men. The Japanese would call such people KY - kuuki yomenai' (空気読めない), unable to “read the air.”
I felt for you. What was he thinking?? I lauged out loud in a theater during a scene in which Superman was dying. Apparently this was supposed to be taken seriously? Emotions in public-- especially in a theater-- are a funny thing. And I am with you on the explanation for the interruption. So suss. He definitely had something to do with it.
You're right- emotions in public often take a funny, unexpected turn. I can understand why you laughed. Because, after all, there will be another movie and Superman will rise again, right? I haven't seen the movie I know from a family member who is a long-time nerd about all things Marvel, DC and all the rest that the death of a Superhero is no laughing matter to the kinds of fans who show up. To them, these films are worthy of the same respectful hush and academic dissection as any Italian film I may want to watch.
Who am I to disagree with the theories and suggestions of Erving Goffman? I don't.
However, from my perspective it's a lot more complex. Social norms and expectations differ greatly between countries, cultures, and even social groups (as you pointed out). This can lead to clashes of social expectations, when people from different backgrounds meet at an event. The effects are often funny, precisely because rules are broken.
Perhaps it's not such a bad thing to shake things up a little every now and again. You mention people in the audience who were "willing to suffer in silence..." but happy that you spoke out. What about their sense of morality? you ask.
Is it really so bad when one brave person speaks their mind, while a fellow human gets carried away on stage unaware of their audience?
IMHO you did the right thing at that film screening. It's a brave thing to do, and instead of feeling shame, you could be proud of yourself. Only because the majority doesn't say anything to interrupt someone who loves the sound of their own voice a little too much, doesn't mean they can claim moral high-ground.
I love that you get both sides, or all sides really, of this situation. He was impassioned, in love with his subject. It occurs to me now that this was his moment - the moment when he was elevated from his every day life in front of students who may or may not care and talkig to people who shared his passion. There was a disconnect on his part and on mine and even on the part of the silent ones in the audience. It is not really so bad when one person speaks their mind and it is not really a crime that a fellow human gets carried away. Maybe I was the agent of the group that night? I could look at my rather spontaneous response as a channeling of all the frustrated members of this mixed social group. No one can claim moral high ground in this situation -- it can be viewed as a group self-correction (with a scapegoat). Thank you so much for this, Veronika!
Yes, that's how I see it too. Having been in such situations in the past (being the scape-goat who dared to say what others only thought, denied in the moment, and later admitted) I totally get it. It's a shitty feeling ~ initially ~ for the scapegoat. I don't think because it's wrong to speak your truth (especially when it happens spontaneously in the moment) but because of the collective gaslighting that follows.
In retrospect I've always come out stronger. I love how you summarise this collective experience, from which everyone can emerge en-lightened, if they choose to take the opportunity. xx
Having blurted too often in the past, I understand the feelings of embarrassment and shame you felt. Some of mine still come to pay a middle-of-the-night visit when I'm having trouble sleeping. But I'm cheering for you too. Saying what so many others were thinking. And saying it so simply. Thanks for sharing so much of your self with us through Spark. Your newsletter is always thought-provoking and thoughtful.
I wish I could say that this is the only episode of blurt before thinking in my life but, sadly and embarrassingly, it is not. Like you, I am occasionally haunted by one of those moments when I might have done better by just stepping back a minute and counting to ten. But you are right, others were thinking it too, maybe I just felt their energy and let it pour through me.
One time in a small doctor's office waiting room, a woman had a loud, long conversation on her phone (it was somewhere between 15-30 minutes). When her husband finished his appointment and beckoned her to leave, she ended her conversation and EVERY person in the waiting room applauded! Anyway, I think you did the right thing. And yes, I believe as we age, we become more willing to speak our thoughts. Hopefully we are polite and try not to hurt the other party. But sometimes speaking up is the best thing to do.
Now that there is a perfect example of a group coalescing to correct one of its members. I wonder if she was confused by the applause or felt admonished?
As for aging and speaking up more readily -- I definitely feel more impatience with filters but also more compassion. I might not have felt so frustrated to day in that situation. I might have seen him as a middle-aged person getting his moment in the sun. I still would have been mad at him for ruining the movie, though.
I’ve always struggled with fitting in but have held myself (mostly) within the boundaries of social norms. However most recently, at the grand old age of 64, I don’t feel the need to do that - the freedom! I was with my husband recently in a town in the U.K. and we went into a local estate agency to thank a chap who had been very helpful in making our recent house purchase happen. He was on the phone. I was tired and had had a day of being social. I simply said I was ‘’peopled out”, didn’t want to wait and would walk back on my own. The shock on other people’s faces - and the joy I felt at having said and done exactly what I wanted to do! Marvellous 🤩😂
Wonderful! It's particularly wonderful that your joy was not dampened at all by the shock you saw on other people's faces So, do you think age/life experience had a role to play here? One thing I'm wondering -- is there a point we reach in life when we just don't care about the things we used to worry about?
I believe that I have less patience now than in my twenties, though I wasn't that patient then either. One boss I had back then talked too much for my liking and finally I blurted that I was sick of her voice. Didn't even know that was going to come out.
She had me suspended 😃
That's a memorable moment! It reminded me of the time my boss was encouraging me to join an aerobics class in the gym that our company opened on campus for employees.. I said " nah, the teachers are too bossy. I don't like people telling me what to do" Luckily for me she just laughed.
Alas, I am often the person who blurts out! Whether asking overly intellectual questions at the parents classroom session at my kids' universities, to answering rhetorical questions at large performances. The trouble for me, is I don't feel shame about it, or rarely! Such outbursts always come from joy, for me. Enthusiasm, a spark of curiosity. I don't dwell or make a fuss if I am not answered, or anything too disruptive. But they are definitely "outbursts". The absence of shame makes me wonder what that means about my personality or wiring. 😁
I suspect the joy is communicated along with the ideas and there is no shame to be found there. Do you ever get responses that surprise and delight you in those situations, or at least make you feel you connected with at least one of the members of the group?
I find that I can't be objective about this because what you did is such a literal description of exactly what my wife would've done and has done in similar situations.
Perhaps I don't understand the context well enough, but I find it hilarious, endearing, and necessary. There are those amongst us who will speak up in those situations even if they surprise themselves sometimes, while most won't.
I bet you're not the only one still telling that story and that many are still appreciating that moment, and even wishing that they had that kind of moxie.
How wonderful to know this. I would like to meet your wife and attend various events with her. We could take turns keeping folks in line :) (If we weren't kicked out).
Now that you are a subscriber, you already know... I wrote the following in reply, but couldn't quite bring myself to post it:
I think that would be amazing and I would love nothing more than for that to be a possibility. Sadly as of this past year we will all have to make do without her beautiful, loving, vibrant and generous spirit, along with her brilliantly sparkling and mischievous moxie.
Take this for what it's worth - I talk to her...
She said that she loved your story and thinks you're a hoot - and that you two could have done some serious damage together.
Tell her thank you for me. I know she hears you and, just as important, I know you hear her. I am glad I subscribed and will get to know a bit about both of you.
Love your story Elizabeth. I only wish I was brave enough to speak my mind in those situations! Go you 😂
Thanks, Vicki!
I love this. I don’t know if it was socially appropriate, probably not, but I love that you did it.
Thank you, Mary!
I'm not sure I thought about it much before this either. I just did it. It must be a practice we absorb every day of our lives.
this is a fascinating theory, and I have to agree. we tend to 'perform' differently according to place and our audience. I've never really thought deeply about that before. it kind of sounds like the professor was perhaps a little too full of himself, and really only needed to do a short intro and let the film tell the story. maybe a good option for all would have been if he offered to stay after the film to discuss it with anyone who would like to talk about it further. I'm with you on this one.
First, thank you for bringing Goffman to the attention of your readers. I asked a friend who is a professor of psychology if he was still read, and she gave me an emphatic yes. As for the movie, I would have shouted in your favor. I once went to a reading by Edwidge Danticat. The professor who introduced her talked for at least 20 minutes about how Danticat had guided her own journey to becoming her true self. This to an audience of at least 150 people. I wanted to do what you did! Don’t feel too bad for the professor you interrupted, and yes, he probably did break the projector.
If you felt that way, can you imagine how Edwidge Danticat felt? Wow. That was egregious. I've been to readings and events when the introductions were very elaborate and made everyone uncomfortable.
I'll never know who broke that projector. Maybe it's better that I don't!
As it happened, they knew each other. Ms Danticat smiled graciously throughout.
I think you were “right on” Betsy! And really if it had happened today, I believe people would have openly applauded you. Honestly, did the Professor have the talking rights which obviously was thrilling for him but a spoiler who those in attendance?
I wonder...I was, in a sense, on his turf. He was a figure in the festival's leadership and obviously respected. He was feeding his ego but the rules of that group seemed to allow it. So, maybe in that group he did feel he had the right to go on as much as he wanted?
Hi Betsy, what an intriguing situation, which made for a fascinating post. My reading is that the professor broke the rules by applying lecture theatre norms to a public film showing. There's probaby no un-embarrassing way to correct him at this stage but from my point of view, what you did was right, even though you had to break the norms to bring things back on track. Going through my mind, though, is the role of gender here. Is a woman interrupting a man viewed in the same way as a man interrupting a woman? What would have happened if the genders had been reversed in this case?
What a great question. I've wondered often if my response to the professor -- which was spontaneous, unplanned, more like a burbling up of resentments -- had something to do with his being male and holding the floor and feeling so comfortable about all that. If a woman had been droning on, I would have wanted to interrupt her but probably would not have unless the rest of the audience had been women too and my outburst may have taken another form. And if a man had done so, my outrage at the man for interrupting probably would have trumped my relief that the droning was over. The rules for women operate, at least in my experience, differently than for men just as classroom or lecture norms differ from a public film showing. Thanks so much for engaging with this question, Jeffrey!
That's so interesting. I also wonder how the professor would have reacted to a man interrupting him. I've experienced a few such droners-on in similar circumstances, though none of the cases perhaps quite so egregious. Without exception, they've been men. The Japanese would call such people KY - kuuki yomenai' (空気読めない), unable to “read the air.”
I felt for you. What was he thinking?? I lauged out loud in a theater during a scene in which Superman was dying. Apparently this was supposed to be taken seriously? Emotions in public-- especially in a theater-- are a funny thing. And I am with you on the explanation for the interruption. So suss. He definitely had something to do with it.
You're right- emotions in public often take a funny, unexpected turn. I can understand why you laughed. Because, after all, there will be another movie and Superman will rise again, right? I haven't seen the movie I know from a family member who is a long-time nerd about all things Marvel, DC and all the rest that the death of a Superhero is no laughing matter to the kinds of fans who show up. To them, these films are worthy of the same respectful hush and academic dissection as any Italian film I may want to watch.
Who am I to disagree with the theories and suggestions of Erving Goffman? I don't.
However, from my perspective it's a lot more complex. Social norms and expectations differ greatly between countries, cultures, and even social groups (as you pointed out). This can lead to clashes of social expectations, when people from different backgrounds meet at an event. The effects are often funny, precisely because rules are broken.
Perhaps it's not such a bad thing to shake things up a little every now and again. You mention people in the audience who were "willing to suffer in silence..." but happy that you spoke out. What about their sense of morality? you ask.
Is it really so bad when one brave person speaks their mind, while a fellow human gets carried away on stage unaware of their audience?
IMHO you did the right thing at that film screening. It's a brave thing to do, and instead of feeling shame, you could be proud of yourself. Only because the majority doesn't say anything to interrupt someone who loves the sound of their own voice a little too much, doesn't mean they can claim moral high-ground.
I love that you get both sides, or all sides really, of this situation. He was impassioned, in love with his subject. It occurs to me now that this was his moment - the moment when he was elevated from his every day life in front of students who may or may not care and talkig to people who shared his passion. There was a disconnect on his part and on mine and even on the part of the silent ones in the audience. It is not really so bad when one person speaks their mind and it is not really a crime that a fellow human gets carried away. Maybe I was the agent of the group that night? I could look at my rather spontaneous response as a channeling of all the frustrated members of this mixed social group. No one can claim moral high ground in this situation -- it can be viewed as a group self-correction (with a scapegoat). Thank you so much for this, Veronika!
Yes, that's how I see it too. Having been in such situations in the past (being the scape-goat who dared to say what others only thought, denied in the moment, and later admitted) I totally get it. It's a shitty feeling ~ initially ~ for the scapegoat. I don't think because it's wrong to speak your truth (especially when it happens spontaneously in the moment) but because of the collective gaslighting that follows.
In retrospect I've always come out stronger. I love how you summarise this collective experience, from which everyone can emerge en-lightened, if they choose to take the opportunity. xx
Having blurted too often in the past, I understand the feelings of embarrassment and shame you felt. Some of mine still come to pay a middle-of-the-night visit when I'm having trouble sleeping. But I'm cheering for you too. Saying what so many others were thinking. And saying it so simply. Thanks for sharing so much of your self with us through Spark. Your newsletter is always thought-provoking and thoughtful.
I wish I could say that this is the only episode of blurt before thinking in my life but, sadly and embarrassingly, it is not. Like you, I am occasionally haunted by one of those moments when I might have done better by just stepping back a minute and counting to ten. But you are right, others were thinking it too, maybe I just felt their energy and let it pour through me.
One time in a small doctor's office waiting room, a woman had a loud, long conversation on her phone (it was somewhere between 15-30 minutes). When her husband finished his appointment and beckoned her to leave, she ended her conversation and EVERY person in the waiting room applauded! Anyway, I think you did the right thing. And yes, I believe as we age, we become more willing to speak our thoughts. Hopefully we are polite and try not to hurt the other party. But sometimes speaking up is the best thing to do.
Now that there is a perfect example of a group coalescing to correct one of its members. I wonder if she was confused by the applause or felt admonished?
As for aging and speaking up more readily -- I definitely feel more impatience with filters but also more compassion. I might not have felt so frustrated to day in that situation. I might have seen him as a middle-aged person getting his moment in the sun. I still would have been mad at him for ruining the movie, though.
I think she knew why everyone was clapping. It was so spontaneous!
I would have mad about him ruining the movie too! But I'm not sure I would have stuck around to find out.
I for sure would have been silently cheering you on. ;)
And I would have felt that somehow!